Before you read this post, read Patrick MacKenzie’s negotiation advice.

Ok, great. You’re 95% of the way there. Here are a few more details and a couple twists and turns I came across.

Still don’t name the first number.

If I had, I would have lowballed myself pretty much everywhere. Surprise - your market value is way higher than you think, you free-food-noshing grad student you.

Use Glassdoor - but it’s not gospel.

Want to know what a (job x) at (company y) makes? Glassdoor can tell you. But a few caveats:

It’s more useful at a common job at a bigger company. There are a ton of Google software engineer posts, but fewer Stitch Fix data scientists.

Salaries go up over time. Glassdoor estimates may be low. If you want to use it to ballpark results and name a number (though don’t name the first number), go for something that’s about 1.3-1.5*Glassdoor price.

Don’t name the first number*.

* I actually did name the first number once, when talking with (Company B) and (Company C) after Stitch Fix gave me an offer. I knew Stitch Fix’s offer was very high on base salary, so I just told it to Companies B and C. They both revised way upward, but couldn’t match it - this is a good sign, I didn’t shoot too low. (Probably. Maybe I did!)

Stitch Fix’s equity offer was pretty standard, though, so I didn’t tell that to companies B or C. (and Company C’s equity offer was about double Stitch Fix’s, so it’s good I didn’t name the first number there.)

If you don’t know if it’s very high, or you’re not 100% sure that it’s very high, don’t name the first number.

Mid-sized companies don’t do bonuses, it seems.

At Google, my salary was like X + ~15% of X for a once-a-year bonus. At all 3 companies I got offers from here, they just had higher base salary and no bonus. I like this; bonuses are dumb.

Equity in pre-IPO companies is way harder to value.

I have no idea what any of my equity will be worth. Maybe $0! You need a “liquidity event” to sell your shares/options; this can be an IPO, or an acquisition, or a buyback (and probably some other things too). Who knows if this will ever happen. Also, if you have options, and you leave the company before a liquidity event, you have to exercise the options (buy the shares) if you want to keep them. This can be expensive, and has tax implications that I don’t understand yet. For these reason, I like salary. Your risk tolerance may vary.

Side note: at Stitch Fix, they wouldn’t tell me what percent of the company I was getting or what the strike price was, instead telling me the potential value if the company is valued at $X billion. This was weird, but you can reverse-engineer the percent and the strike price. Ask me if you want to know how to figure this out.

If there’s a minor perk difference, price it out

Stitch Fix, for one, doesn’t offer lunch. Eh, ok! Say I’ll spend $10 a day on lunch, times 200 work days a year = $2000 after tax ~= $3000 pre-tax. I subtracted $3k from their offer and I’m still happy with it.

Don’t name the first number.

Did I mention this yet? They will try all kind of tricks to make you name the first number. Kindly, politely refuse.

This was all moot in the case of Stitch Fix, because they didn’t allow negotiation.

This was awesome. They gave me a very high offer, and wouldn’t budge on it. Their (correct) reasoning is that negotiation opens the door for inequality (e.g. between men and women) based on who negotiates more. So I didn’t have to do this whole stupid dance with them! I was very impressed. I hope this becomes a trend.

If some of your offers are negotiable (and they probably will be), you need to negotiate; in that case, you have to play the game and help everyone save face.

Company C would not give me an offer until I told them the details of Stitch Fix’s offer. This led to an awkward confrontation, which maybe I didn’t handle great:

C: Can you tell me the details of the equity in the other company?

Me: I’d rather not, if you don’t mind.

C: But it would really help.

Me: Nah, I’d prefer to keep that private.

C: I just need something to go on, in order to give you the best offer.

Me: I don’t see how this could possibly help me, though.

C: Sure it can; I’m trying to work with you here.

Me: No, you’re trying to get me to sign for the lowest salary. I’m trying to get the highest salary. Giving you this information can only hurt me.

C: That is not what I’m doing at all.

Me: Err… aren’t you? What are you doing, then? Why not just get the best offer you can and we’ll talk again then?

(some more back and forth)

C: I’m really taken aback; I don’t think I’ve ever had a call like this. I think the best thing to do is to end the call.

Me: Oh. I… I’m sorry! I can see that I’ve offended you, and I really apologize. Yes, if you want to end the call, we can do that, and I’ll talk to you again soon.

Later, when talking with some managers, I was mildly reprimanded - like “we wanted to clear this up and make sure it was just a misunderstanding, because this seemed like a bit of a red flag to us” etc.

I was trying to just “take the cover off the game” and talk honestly. I didn’t want to muck around with “well, because of reason X, maybe you can throw in some more salary” or whatever - but there is a maximum and minimum price you’re willing to hire me at, let’s try to get the maximum.

She… did not appreciate that. I think it made us both sound like greedy money-grubbers. Instead, I guess we’ve got to use the language of “working together to find a mutually beneficial deal”, “make the pie bigger”, “well because of my excellent qualifications blahblah”, “I’m hoping to get a salary that allows me to focus on doing great work and not worrying about money”, etc.

Welp!

Here’s a way it could have gone better (props to my friend Stu):

C: Can you tell me the details of the equity in the other company?

Me: I’d rather not, if you don’t mind.

C: But it would really help.

Me: Nah, I’m sorry, that information is private.

C: I just need something to go on, in order to give you the best offer.

Me: Can I ask why you need to know?

C: (some BS thing)

Me: Ah, ok. Well, like I said, sorry, that’s private. When do you think you can get together an offer?

C: After you tell me the other offer details!

Me: Well, unfortunately, that information is private. So, how about if you just put together the strongest offer you can and we’ll talk about it then?

C: I really need to know the details of your other offer.

Me: Well, imagine I hadn’t gotten that offer yet; what offer would you get me then?

C: But you did get that offer.

Me: But like I said, unfortunately, it’s private. Do you mean you can’t make an offer without knowing the details of my other offer?

C: Well, no…*

Me: Ok, great! Then I look forward to hearing the details. When do you think you can get it to me?

* I’m like 90% sure she legally has to say no here (in CA at least). But if she says yes, then I guess, decide how much hardball you want to play and how much you want this offer :-/

This would still be somewhat confrontational, but that’s on her. This conversation is more polite and we can still maintain this facade of “we’re working on the same team.” If it helps, imagine that the other company who’d given you the offer hadn’t told it to you yet, or that you were legally not allowed to say it for whatever reasons. (“sorry, I’d so love to get you that information! it’s just, gosh darn it, it happens to be private. oh well.")

Use your people!

It was very helpful to me to go on Facebook after this difficult interaction and ask “uhh… did I do something really wrong?” and hear “eh, probably nah.” The Companies will try all kinds of tricks to make you feel bad for asking for more money, etc. They are capital, you are labor, and 99% of the time you’re working together but in this 1% you are somewhat at odds. They do this every day; you are a newbie. Don’t get taken.

Reach out to me if you ever want some help. Not that I’m an expert, but I’m happy to help friends and family :) I’ve worked with 2 people now, plus myself, who were scared to negotiate at all, and we got a little extra money each time, anyway - maybe not optimal, but pretty good for standing on one foot and reciting poetry for 15 minutes!